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From: rpalmer@Think.COM (Ralph Palmer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SKS FAQ?
Message-ID: <25sv20INNo6j@early-bird.think.com>
Date: 30 Aug 93 14:52:09 GMT
Sender: magnum@mimsy.umd.edu
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
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Approved: gun-control@cs.umd.edu

We don't have an offical FAQ, but here is what I've scooped off the net
over the last few years:


As promised (or threatened) here's my method of stripping & cleaning an
SKS/56 rifle. Even the "clean" ones from a dealer often have excessive
grease in them, potentially making them dangerous to shoot.


This describes the gentle art of field-stripping (and re-assembling)
the Soviet SKS and Chinese 56 semi-automatic rifles.

As a 10-shot semi-auto, selling for less than $200 in unissued
condition, and shooting 11 cent 7.62x39mm rounds (.30 cal), they're
worth the price even if they are well-packed in gun grease.

Really messy, but they clean-up well if you can figure how to
dismantle the beasts.

                           ---//---

0.  I'll leave general weapon positioning and detailed descriptions out
of this monograph since the instructions become self-evident with just
moderate familiarity with the weapon.  This is a practical, semi-
empirical cleaning and disassembly method.  Read it all before
beginning.

1.   First, do NOT remove the large bolt going thru the stock above
the magazine. It's there to reinforce the stock. Leave it alone.

2.   UNLOAD THE WEAPON. Check the chamber for any rounds, unlatch the
magazine and LEAVE IT OPEN. (This isn't just for safety.)

3.   Put the safety on safe. That's the extra "trigger" on the right
side of the trigger guard. Put it in the UP position, against the stock.
(Again, not just for safety.)

4.   At the rear of the weapon (on the right side) is a receiving cover
pin & latch above and almost in line with the trigger. Rotate it upwards
and pull it outwards --you can't remove it.

Now, slide the receiver cover rearward off the rifle. Also, remove the
recoil spring assembly (the big spring going into the bolt).

5.  Slide out the bolt and its carrier. There are two pieces which will
fall apart. It's easy to figure out how they go back together.

6.  On the right side of the rifle, pivoting just in front of the rear
sights is the gas cylinder tube lock.  Rotate it to 45 degrees upwards,
pointing to the rear.  This should allow you to lift the top handguard
and gas tube off the rifle.  Don't let the loose piston within the
cylinder fall out and get damaged.

7.  Where the gas tube fitted into the rifle in front of the rear
sight is a gas piston and spring. Put your thumb over this hole and
raise the tube lock to the vertical position. This allows the piston
and spring to shoot across the room if you didn't put your thumb in the
right place.

Go pick up these pieces up and put them with the rest of the parts.

8.  The trigger group is removed by keeping the "safety" ON. Behind
the trigger guard, at its base, is a metal button with a dimple in it
--the trigger group retaining lock. Use a suitable tool to push in on
the dimple until the trigger group pops free so you can remove it.

Supposedly, the point of a live round is the tool of choice, but not mine.

This lock is a vertical leaf spring that comes down from the receiver,
thru the stock, and latches into the trigger assembly. This holds the
barrel assembly, stock and trigger together as a group.

9.  The magazine is easily removed by pulling out on it.


10.  Unlock the bayonet by pulling back on its retaining sleeve, and
then lever-out the barrel from the stock.  A single pivot bolt should be
removed to allow removal and cleaning of the bayonet assembly.

The cleaning rod can be removed only when the bayonet is at right angles
to the rifle. A cam action in the bayonet holds this rod in place.

11.  Remove the two screws from the butt plate and remove the plate.
There may be a cleaning kit in there and lots of grease.

                        ---//---

Now, you've got the whole, greasy gun laid-out around you.  Use
newspapers, cloths, paper towels, and a 1" paint brush and plenty of
turpentine and gasoline (NO SMOKING, now), a coffee can or metal pan and
clean those parts.  There must be two pounds of grease in that gun, with
1/2 of it in the barrel.  Judiciously used, these two solvents won't
hurt the stock.

Do all this outside for fire safety and to minimize the inhalation of
solvent fumes.

The bolt does not need to be disassembled to clean it fully. Soak the
assembly in sufficient solvent, and periodically wiggle the firing pin
within its travel limits. This will help force out the grease and allow
more solvent into the bolt.

Once a majority of the grease is out, the solvent will have easy entrance
and will be able to fully clean the bolt and firing pin. A little shaking,
sloshing, and more firing pin wiggling will clean the bolt thoroughly.

By actually doing this, you'll see how well the procedure works even
though it may sound iffy and incomplete.

Clean and oil the weapon to your satisfaction, let the solvents evaporate
from the stock, and reassemble as follows:

                           ---//---
1.  Reinstall the butt cover, or add an extension to make it fit you.

2.  Slide the barrel onto the stock, insert the cleaning rod, and lock
the bayonet into the closed position.

3.  Put the magazine back in place and LEAVE IT OPEN.  Seat it properly
so that the front end catches in the proper notches and will then lever
into position with the cover open.

4.  Replace the trigger assembly while ensuring that the forward pins
lock into the notch at the rear of the magazine (important).  Swing the
trigger group down into position, put one hand on the barrel opposite
the trigger and use the heel of your other hand on the trigger guard to
pop the assembly back into place.  The lock for the trigger assembly is
a stiff one, but you shouldn't have to force it.

5.  Replace the gas piston extension and spring by swinging the lock
into its vertical position, inserting the assembly and pushing in with
your thumb as you then rotate the lock to a rearward 45 degree angle.
Carefully remove your thumb to see if the assembly is locked into
place.

6.  Replace the piston into the gas cylinder (small end first), fit
the assembly back onto the barrel and lower its other end down in
front of the rear sight. You may have to adjust the lock slightly
while doing this. Once in place, rotate the lock downward into its
latched position.

7.  Insert the bolt and carrier as a pair into the receiver and push
them all the way forward. Insert the curly end of the recoil spring
assembly into the bolt carrier (straight portion of the spring
rearward). You'll see what I mean.

8.  Pull the receiver retaining pin and latch fully outwards, with the
latch vertical, and slide the receiver cover into place. Push the pin in
and rotate the latch downward into the horizontal locked position.

9.  Close the magazine and test the rifle's action. A closed, empty
magazine should hold the bolt open via a small block.

10.  If something won't quite go back together: a) put the safety on
SAFE, b) open the magazine, c) try the bolt in the alternate position
(open or closed), d) take a deep breath and look at what you're doing,
and, e) try rereading the instructions.

11. You're done. Now, practice safe gun handling procedures, leave
your camp cleaner than you found it, and don't shoot Bambi. You want
your mother to be proud of you --don't you?
=====================
#
#       The rifle is drenched with oil everywhere. What is the
#       easiest way to "degrease" the thing? My primary concern
#       is removing the oil from the stock without damaging the
#       wood. Should I remove the stocks and handle them separately?

What you're looking at is green and viscous and called cosmoline.  It is a heavy
grease used to protect the weapon during its indefinite time in inventory.
The gun is very durable and resistant to abuse, so the following will work.
Disassembe the weapon and take a hot shower with it( I hope you're not in a
water-rationing area, and even if you are, if they're still issuing building
permits AND asking you to conserve . . . another peeve).  Use any combination
of brushes and towels to remove this evil stuff; tooth brushes work great.
Dry the weapon thoroughly and reassembe, applying a generous coating of
weapons' oil to all metal surfaces and fini.

#
#       The rifle did not come with any manual at all. Does anyone
#       have (or know where I can get) instructions on how to
#       field strip it?

Navy Arms
689 Bergen Blvd.
Ridgefield, NJ  07657
(201)945-2500

It's pretty simple, if you want to shower with the assempled weapon to remove
the outer cosmoline, inspection should yield up the methods to disassemble.
Either do this in the buff, or wear clothes that are expendable, the cosmoline

#
#       The bolt stays in the open position when the magazine is
#       empty. How do I get the bolt to close without loading
#       the gun and without dropping the magazine?

Press the magazine follower down, this will allow the bolt to move forward
into battery.

#
#       How do I get the cleaning kit out of the butt of the stock
#       without pinching my finger between the trapdoor and the
#       cleaning kit (very painful!)? Should I just keep the kit
#       out of the stock?

If space is not a consideration and you really want to use that kit to
clean the weapon, fine, leave it out.  I personally leave it in there and
clean it with the same brushes and rods(softer hence less abrasive) I use on
my 9mm, .308, 30-06, or 30-30.  Remember it is there as a convenience to the
combat soldier in the field.  Also, after you clean the cosmoline off the
weapon, this will be easier to manage.
#
#Thanks in advance,
#


        I have read all of the other responses to date and the
instructions posted by Mr. Worley are excellent. Mr. Worley makes
a strong point of keeping the safety on while dissassembling the
rifle and during reassembly, this is very important, otherwise the
catch on the upper reciever and the trigger group will not lock
together.  DO NOT use a rubber mallet or any mallet!! If you have
difficulty :

        1       Check that the upper reciever an barrel are correctly
                placed in the stock.
        2       Check that the hammer in the trigger group is cocked
                and that the safety is rotated to the rear and up,
                that is on "safe".
        3       Place the rear flat top of the reciever on a solid
                bench, make sure that the stock is not interfering
                with anything on the bench and press down firmly on
                the trigger assy.

        That should do it.

        I have recieved, dissassembled, cleaned, and reassembled
more than 20 of these carbines. I allways used an automotive shop
type solvent tank, long thin bottle brushes, and compressed air.
You may not have access to this kind of equipment but try to avoid
using gasoline or taking a shower with the carbine. Gasoline is
extremely flammable and taking a hot shower with a heavily greased
rifle is one of the most ridiculous things that I have ever heard
of. We used to take a shower with our rifles in the U.S.M.C. after
we came back from a particularly muddy or wet exercise but *NEVER*
to remove grease, the rifles were already wet. Use the minnimum of
a good quality of gun oil to oil the gun, CLP works well.
        I have found that the cleaning kit in the buttstock is
very handy for cleaning the gun. Try using the cleaning rod for
removing it from behind it's door.
        After firing, be sure to pay particular attention to
the piston tube, the piston, the area around the barrel where the
piston (gas tube) attaches to the barrel, and the bolt and bolt
carrier, some surplus ammo is corrosive.

        You will probably have already cleaned the gun by the
time you get this. Hopefully everything went ok...
Enjoy it... it is an excellent weapon. I have had excellent use
out of the two that I own. I have shot about 2000 rounds through
each and never had a single problem in the past 4 years. The SKS
also seems capable of remarkable accuracy with surplus ammo.
I can get consistent sub 2 m.o.a. groups with the iron sights alone.

========================
  I just picked up a SKS here in Kalifornia.. It was $134 out the door, 
  but of course I have to wait 15 days to pick it up. That is NOT a bad
  deal at all, I think the list price (advertised in a magazine) was
  109. I would imagine that you could find similar deals elsewhere.
  BTW It came with the Evil (tm) bayonet (sp?) and a cleaning kit.
========================
A brand new unissued SKS shouldn't set you back more than $100, $90-95
uncleaned (in cosmolene).  It may be worth the $5/10 for the cleaning
if you don't have a backyard and/or solvent bath.  Knowing how to
disassemble and clean an SKS it still took me a 1/2 gallon of gas and
a couple of hours to fully clean it.  On second thought the cleaning
process is a real good way to get familiar with the rifle, and you'll
have to disassemble it as much as if you were cleaning to be sure that
the shop cleaned it properly.

Some of the outfits in Shotgun News will sell an "issued but
refurbished" SKS for as little as $70.

Best buy it soon - and ammo as well.  China is likely to lose it's
"most favored status" on January 20th, and prices may well climd out
of sight.
========================
	Just went to a gun show here in Iowa.  Wasn't a big show, but
had a good turn-out of dealers and buyers.  SKS' were going for
about $180 or so NIB for the plain ones, and up to $700 for the
nylon-stocked, scoped, flash-suppressed, multiple-magazines included
versions.  For starting out, pay your $180 and spend the rest on ammo.
========================
         Brand new '91 mfg. cost $90 thru dealers in the 
        shotgun news.  Take it from there.

      They DO shoot nice ;-))  !!!! 

       You might think of add ons too - big magazines - 
       both removeable and 20 rd fixed. 
        Paragon sells an E. German stock that is better suited
        to larger body frames size people.
        around Chritsmas fiberglass stocks come on sale - $20.
        Lay in a good supply of ammo too- no FFL needed.
========================
At least one dealer was selling them for $109.xx at the Indy gun
show last week.  They had a case or 2.  These were the ones with
the folding bayonet. 
========================
The most important thing to remember with an SKS is that sometimes the trigger
doesn't return *internally* to the forward position, leaving you with a rifle
who has a hair trigger on the next shot.  Plenty of people have gotten shot in
the leg or arm that way.  Be careful, and remeber:  the saftey of these things
is a cruel joke.

I cleaned mine and began polishing the trigger.  Play with the trigger a
little (and watch that hammer, it'll pop you if you aren't looking!) and
you'll see a bar that slides under a semicirular cutout in the hammer.  That
is what hangs up, and incidentally is what makes the stock trigger feel so
rough.  Blow that gap full of Permatex valve lapping compound (auto parts
stores) and work the trigger for a few minutes.  Clean it like crazy
afterwards (I used varsol) and oil well.  You'll have a trigger that works
smoothly and returns fully to the rear each time.  SKSes have very long
trigger pulls by sport/target standards (military triggers are usually for
less-than-benchrest caliber shooters) but you can make it work pretty well.

There are several "kinds" of SKSes running around now.  I've seen

1) New, 1991 manufacture full length
2) new 1991 "paratrooper" short-barrel (about 4 inches less, looks like 18" of
   barrel)
3) Unissued full size in cosmoline, made in 1960.

The ones made in 1960 are by far the best shooters.  They have polished
triggers (some 91 parts look like they were cur on a bandsaw and left as-is)
and they have slightly thicker barrels.  The barrel is stepped, the first step
is the reciever area, and on 1960s the reciever step is a lot longer than the
ones on the 91s.  I think that's why the 1960 shoots 3" groups at 100 yards
while the 1991 is about 7-8" groups at 100.

Buy the "unissued", 1960 production.  You will have to clean it very
thouroghly before firing or it will explode.  Buy something like a 16 oz spray
can of Break Free and use the long plastic tube nozzel for the trigger group. 
You'll have the option of "milled" or "stamped" trigger groups.  There is no
functional difference whatsoever, except the stamped group is usually $5 less,
and the cheapo plastic pistol-grip kits will only fit milled groups.  The
pistol grips are absolute junk.  They came in here in the summer, now that
it's getting cold, I've seen one break already. :-)

The ammo for SKS, 7.62x39, is easy to come by but extremely variable in
quality.  The cheap chinese crap in galvanized steel cans, 720 rounds per can,
is *extremely* corrosive.  Completely disassemble the rifle and clean like
your life depends on it within and hour or two of firing.  I've cleaned
people's SKSes that were bright red with dendrils of rust.  Norinco (chinese)
non-corrosive is available, but costs a little more.  I've seen corrosive for
as little as 8.3 cents/round quan. 720 still in the sealed waterproof can.
Winchester sells FMJ 123 gr. non corrosive (really, really good stuff!) for
about $13/20rounds (under their "USA" generic brand) and Federal sells 125 gr.
FMJ under their "American Eagle" brand.  Wichester is also selling a 125-gr
expanding Spire Point that should be resonable for Whitetail Deer east of the
Missisippi.  I'm not sure where you are in VA, but we just don't get shots
over 150 yards down here except across freshly-cut corn fields.  Finally, PMC
has some 123 gr. FMJ that, based on recoil, feels like it's pounding the gun. 
I'm shying away from this stuff, but it seems to be the best shooting.  It's
what I got my 2.1" group with.

There are 30 round magazines available, but:

1) you can buy the mag., but it's technically illegal to install on rifles
imported after Nov. 1990

2) None of them really work well anyway (failure to feed).

3) I saw one poor guy who needed two people to remove his magazine, one to
hold rifle, one to yank magazine :-(

There are some non-detachabe 20 round magazines made just like for original 10
round (many are Norinco-made) that work really well.  Get one if you can. 
They're legal and they work *really* well.

Norinco sells a scope mount that bolts to the side of the reciever.  It's okay.
B-Square sells one that mounts to the top of the reciever cover.  It sucks. 
The reciever cover squirms around making the scope useless.

You'll probably wind up buying a buckle and making a belt out of the original
sling and buying an Uncle Mike's padded nylon sling.  Much better...

You might want to pick up anything you'll ever want in the next couple of
weeks, prices have gone up here about 11-12% in the last six weeks.  An
unissued SKS (1960) was $105, milled group $110.  That's expected to run
$120-125 this weekend, with some hacked-up-from-surplus-parts ones reaching
$100.

The bayonet makes a good tent stake, but is useless for anything else. :-)

Have fun, maintain constant muzzle awareness, and remember rifles are called
"sticks" unless you have ammo.
========================
With FFL about $90 for NIB.  Should be able to get at retail for 
$125 or less.
========================
EXpect to pay about $100 to $120 for an SKS. Do get one with the
cleaning rod and cleaning kit (it stores in the stock). Bayonet
and sling not vital.

Two items that come separately are the gas port reamer and the
front sight tool. Stripper clips make loading easier.

IMHO EVERYBODY should have an SKS. THere are precious few excuses
not to.
========================
The SKS is a great gun -- you'll enjoy it. Don't get the folding stock though,
the SKS is already too front-heavy, and the lightweight stock throws the 
center of gravity forward at least another inch. Also, be sure to clean
it immediately after firing (especially if using surplus ammo). I've had mine
get large globs of rust only two days after firing. Other than
that, they're great. I don't have mine anymore (sold it to a friend) -- I 
just bought an Enfield. I may get another SKS someday, though. Also,
check out the 'paratrooper' model. It's about 4 inches shorter. I expect that
it is probably balanced better than the standard SKS.
========================
	I paid $123 for mine in the local gun shop.  Other than the
general things to look for when purchasing any rifle, I'd strip it
down and thoroughly clean it before firing it too much.  I stripped
mine and found, despite the external appearance, that the internals
were quite cruddy, and in need of attention (The trigger was so covered
in junk the hammer spring had no gaps to it!)  As far as add-ons, someone
else can probably give you a better idea as to what's available.  I
normally don't put add-ons on my guns.
========================
I've put almost 500 rounds through my SKS in the few months that I've owned it.
I can truly say that it is a pleasure (blast) to shoot.  The gun is very 
reliable (no jams or misfires yet).  If you're thinking about getting a rifle
and don't want to shell out big bucks for the gun or the ammo, a SKS is the 
sure answer.  I have shot better, or "more expensive" guns and as far as 
shooting enjoyment goes, they're no better than the SKS.
 
A few reccomendations:
 
If you want to keep your gun legal, you can't put a detachable magazine on it,
nor can you have a folding stock.  If you want to have extended ammo capability
you can buy 30 round "fixed" magazine.  It basicly looks like the detachable 
mag but doesn't come off without removing the trigger assembly.  I have one of 
these which is made of a fiberglass composite polymer.  It works great but is 
quite obtrusive and can be awkward to load.  It also makes it difficult to put
the gun in a case for transportation.  It sure looks tough though.  The other
option for extended capacity is to purchase one of the original chinese 20 
round mags.  It attaches and loads just like the original 10 round mag, but
is simply twice as big.  
 
Unless your arms are chinese-length, you will want to modify the stock.  You
can buy butt-pad extensions, or you can replace the stock all-together.  I
bought a folding stock and "pinned" it with a phillips head screw.  I'm not
sure if that meets the requirement for "permantly pinned", but at least I tried.
 
I was at a gun show and held up a SKS with a fiberglass "Monte Carlo" (hunting)
stock. It felt very good and was much better balanced than the folding stock.
One disadvantage of the MC stock is that the bayonet can not be attached with
it on the gun.  
 
Summary and recomendations:  
If you want a gun you can pull out and imitate Chuck Norris with, get a 30 
round mag and a folding stock.
 
If you want a general target or hunting rifle, get a Monte Carlo stock with the
appropriate sized mag (the also sell OEM 5 round hunting mags)
 
A note about the "illeagal attachments":  Chances are you would never have a
problem with the detachable mag or the folding stock.  The reason that they are
illegal is because of a federal lay prohibiting "modification of a firearm".  
My guess is that any local law enforcement officer would not be aware of the 
law and wouldn't care what you did to your gun.  Just keep it away from the 
feds.  
 
 
Price:
I Have a FFL (for personal use mostly) which I used to mail order my gun at 
wholesale price.  I paid about $89.  I have seen them at shops and shows for
about $130-$145.  
 
Any thing I missed?...
 
Good luck
 
PS: make sure you get a new production (1991-1992) gun.  The "new-unissued"
(read 20 years old) guns aren't as good and come packed in grease (yuk).
========================
Last weekend, I saw a lot of good looking SKS rifles at a local gun
show at the Montgomery County Fairgrounds in Gaithersburg, Maryland.
The prices started at $89!
========================
  Good choice on the SKS.  I paid $119 at Navy Arm's retail store a
year or so ago.  Wholesale prices are getting pretty cheap now, on the
order of $89 according to ads in Shotgun News.
  One trick I learned from an article in _American Rifleman_ last year
was to take out the gas-operated rod that cycles the action (making it
semi-auto.)  This lets me cycle it by hand and save the brass for
reloading without chasing it down, and keeps it from getting beat up.
Of course 7.6x39 is getting so cheap you probably don't need to reload
anyhow, but I was experimenting.  Whatever.
============================
Thanks to all who responded.

I have received a coupe of responses from those who have adjusted the
SKS front sight for windage.  It turns out the elevation screw has
nothing to do with locking the windage.  (good thing, too.)  The sight
is usually very hard to drift the first time.  After that it is
easier, but still hard compared to other types of sights.  There are
various tools out there, some of them all metal, some part plastic,
ranging in price from about $5-$15.  They say to buy an all-metal one.
One person had success with a bicycle chain breaker.  I tried mine,
but it wouldn't fit around the sight housing.  :-( I'll be odering my
metal tool soon. :-)